Fangamer

http://www.destructoid.com/blogs/Scary+Womanizing+Pig+Mask/giygas-a-psychoanalysis-of-evil-itself-151790.phtml#story

Just thought I would like to share this with you guys. Most of it is stuff you might already know, but it’s still a really great read. ENJOY

Completely agree with Incorherent Moron.

Seeing as he can’t even spell Giegue right, I don’t think I can take him seriously.

My first nitpick is one I have with how a lot of people seem to picture Giygas, and I’m hoping this isn’t where it stems from: Giygas, as the swirl you see him at the end of the game, isn’t that swirl all the way through the game. As you hear more about how Giygas reacts you can tell there are changes to the way he operates, before finally becoming that form that Pokey unleashes upon you — a force that is only unleashed then, in that final battle. Up until near the end, he’s still got some kind of brain. He’s not an almighty idiot all the way through, else he wouldn’t have formed any sort of coherent threat (which we know he was capable of doing, at least until halfway through the game).

Second, the lullabies were not a welcome part of Giegue’s upbringing, which is why they led to his downfall. This has come up recently so I won’t touch on this too much.

We also don’t know why Giegue came back, but to stop PSI is purely speculation. After all if it was all about the PSI, the alien left plenty of PSI users on earth. Ninten and Ana notwithstanding you also have the Garrickson baby, and all the healers throughout the game.

Another problem is that if he couldn’t hurt the species that raised him (which this blog claims is the reason he backed off)… why did he come back? I don’t see how that makes any sense. “I’m evil and have no emotions. Oh no, you’re reminding me that I have emotions! Okay I’m not going to attack now, because my emotions are back, also I hate you expect me again in a couple years.” … “… Okay, I’m all good and heartless again now for round 2.” It just doesn’t feel right to me.

And to think this far and I’ve not gotten to Mother 2, yet.

Brihutch2021:

I’ll save you the trouble of reading further: he calls him a fetus.

Like everybody already hasn’t.

Incoherent Moron:

this was the person who widely reported on the Giygas fetus theory, and the same theory is used here

Durp. My apologies for that (and for my spelling transgression. Sadly that’s not the worst I’ve made >.<) While I totally agree, an intricate theory about Giygas actually being a secret fetus is a little ridiculous, I don’t think the notion is completly devoid of meaning. The whole point of mentioning it is to illustrate the state that Giygas is in (as described by Porky) unaware of his surroundings or even his existence, attacking on a fully unconscious and reactive level. Whether or not the silhouette is intentional, is debatable (I still think it is, but I can fully understand the viewpoint of it being a mere coincidence, and that it might just be me being conspiratorial,) but the point isn’t that he’s in an exact fetal state, but merely that he’s an unconscious being, and as such, totally unaccountable for his actions, thus comparable to a fetus (which leads to a handy visual aid and abortion metaphor.)

And as for Satsy, I can agree with you, nothing is down in stone, so this is just my view on the matter, but I’ve always seen Giygas as a very Wizard of Oz like figure, except not even a man behind the terrifying leader, just an “almighty idiot” as Porky would say. Neither is concrete though, so I can agree to disagree.

As for the lullaby, I’m not quite sure what you mean, and would love to hear more about it (apologies if that came across as sardonic in any way! I’m genuinely curious about the matter!)

As for the PSI, I’m 95% sure in the final boss dialogue , he talks about how George betrayed them and stole the secretes of PSI, (I’ll see if I can get a screencap from a video.) This is coming from the Earthbound 0 translation though, so perhaps it should be taken with a grain of salt?

And as for the last one, I’m not sure why that’s such an audacious claim (then again, if I’m the one making it I probably wouldn’t be able to >.<) I’m not saying he’s become totally unable to hurt humanity, just in that instance, his repressed emotions are to strong and he has to leave. As for his return, I’m of the persuasion that he was in his Giygas form all through out Earthbound, and as such was unafflicted by any rational thought or emotion, or it could be a matter of George and Maria’s bloodline becoming diluted enough that he wouldn’t have to face them again. Or he could have even just have been hoping that no one would remember the lullaby anymore. I digress though.

And let me just apologize if this came across at all as adversarial or contrarian! I’m a huge fan of the site, and know better then to discount your opinions in matters Mother You guys are the pros!

-Scary Womanizing Pig Mask

I’d definitely like to know what’s going on with Porky…

Sorry for putting you in the middle of a crossfire, SWPM

- Monodi

dekw:

Scary Womanizing Pig Mask:

Mrs. Bob

Sorry to derail what was just going civilly and intelligently where there was wrong potential…

but, um, what about that part

Durp >.< Meant to make that Misters. My bad!

I’ll say Giygas isn’t a fetus, simply because.. why would he be a fetus in specific?
It wouldn’t make sense, why would Itoi support abortions after his traumatic experience as a child…
At the VERY VERY LEAST, it could refer to the fact that abortions are usually extremely traumatic for a woman that had fallen victim to sexual assault, or to refer to a mother that hadn’t cared for their child.
And the only reason I say this is because of what Itoi had said about John Lennon and his relation with his mother, referring to his song ‘Mother’ which was about his relationship with his mother whom he felt as if he’d never “had” but had given himself to her.

Also while on the topic of Giygas i’d like to state that the final battle made me shake, and I felt nauseous and was horribly terrified for real

Earthbound isn’t about abortions or evil, though.
It’s about life, friendship, and love

Heh, rather long reply incoming!

SimonBob:

Except “Mister SaturnStorm” is also a misnomer, since she’s a lady! Sometimes, ya just can’t win. ;D

I have to admit, I was extremely dubious about this, mostly because you put the word “psychoanalysis” in there and people using big words that way make me wary. But other than the fetus thing (which I’m never going to say is anything but totally dumb, I’m afraid) you bring a few decent ideas to the table, so I say welcome aboard!

You mentioned the lullaby: at some point in EB0, Maria talks about Giegue, saying, “He was always wagging his tail, just like a pup… EXCEPT for when I tried to SING him lullabies…” So I don’t think his dislike of music came from an absense of feeling, nor do I think he runs away at the end out of fear of his own leftover humanity; rather, I’ve always had the sense that something about the frequency of a melodic song actually causes physical pain to Giegue’s race, through some sort of physiological trauma that I can’t even start to describe. Note that the “music” in locations where you fight alien masterminds (well, other than Giegue, that’s just Starman Jr. in the zoo) is a high-pitched buzzing noise. To us, it’s terribly annoying, but maybe to them it’s like a top 40 pop hit. Of course, if we combine our theories, we come up with this robust super-theory wherein Giegue is torn by his devotion to Maria versus the pain he’s forced to endure by her expression of love, and the combined emotional and physical harm leaves him utterly devastated, which would certainly lead him to the sort of nihilism that would make him want to give everything up to destroy the universe. Interesting, yes? In any case, I think we can agree that he’s painted as something of a tragic figure over the course of the two games, even though he’s the enemy at all times.

Thanks for the welcome! I’m still trying to piece together my thoughts on the matter (I really should replay EB0,) but I do really like your super theory! I’m just a little nonplussed about the idea of it causing purely physical pain, since it seems so base an explanation (it could very well just be me trying over-complicate things though.) Perhaps lullabies were always a particularly emotionally moving experience for Gieuge, and doubly so during the final battle. Might just be me shoehorning it in though Would you mind if I added a little bit about said quote to my article?

Gyoza:

I’ll say Giygas isn’t a fetus, simply because.. why would he be a fetus in specific?
It wouldn’t make sense, why would Itoi support abortions after his traumatic experience as a child…
At the VERY VERY LEAST, it could refer to the fact that abortions are usually extremely traumatic for a woman that had fallen victim to sexual assault, or to refer to a mother that hadn’t cared for their child.
And the only reason I say this is because of what Itoi had said about John Lennon and his relation with his mother, referring to his song ‘Mother’ which was about his relationship with his mother whom he felt as if he’d never “had” but had given himself to her.

Also while on the topic of Giygas i’d like to state that the final battle made me shake, and I felt nauseous and was horribly terrified for real

Earthbound isn’t about abortions or evil, though.
It’s about life, friendship, and love

Couldn’t agree more with the last part That’s the crux of both Porky and Giygas’ miserable state, their stilted lives, devoid of friendship and love, and the depravity it leads too.

As for the whole fetus thing, I won’t deny, I go with it primarily because of the infamous image, but at it’s core, it’s just a handy metaphor to describe his “almighty idiot” state, which I think we can all agree is comparable to the mindset (or rather, lack there of) of un-fully developed (is that a word?) infant. It also has a second aspect I really like, which is what you touched on in the Lennon remark; one of Giygas’ basest motivation was always his repressed longing for a family, and specifically Maria, much like the primal longing of an infant for it’s mother. This is still a theory though, and just one specific aspect of the incredibly multifaceted nature of Giygas’ psyche, and as such totally open to rejection, but I don’t think it’s really all that ridiculous (in fact, I feel it’s rather conservative in terms of theories, whether that holds true is debatable,) and a far cry from the meme of yore. Then again, I’m a bit of a biased judge

M_A_X:

And as he watched his adopted nephew falter under the weight of a final assault, pity seems to have welled up inside Gieuge, and his cold facade cracked the tiniest smidge. In a truly pitiable moment, Gieuge made his adopted kin a last minute proposition: “Ninten! You alone, I may save you. Just you alone. Board our Mother Ship with me.” And with that, Gieuge’s deepest desire was revealed; beyond all the war and invasion, he just wanted a friend; his family back, and was willing to put aside his mission to get such.

I always thought that he was just trying to be deceptive with that line… but wow…

That’s just really beautiful.

The rest of this is pretty much BS and fanfiction though.

Thank you! I’m glad you liked it As for the later part; while I’m fine with the label of bs, (it’s an opinion after all, and criticisms of it are just as valid as the viewpoint itself,) but I can’t say I’m not a little resentful of the title of fanfiction. The connections, theories and viewpoints are far cry from concrete, as as such totally open to rejection. But I don’t feel any of what I propose is that absurd or audacious. It’s not perfect, and in the end it’s just my speculation and musings, but it is firmly grounded in the information given in the two games, and while the conclusions that stem from those are debatable, and the recounted events dramatized, I will disagree that any of it’s made up in the fanficy manner.

But then again, I may just be being a stickler, and in that case I apologize!

Hopefully my next article should prove less controversial, it’s gonna examine the cut final boss of Mother 3, and how it was really supposed to be Giygas possesing Claus (I kid, I kid,) but in seriousness, thanks again for more excellent food for thought, and since the Porky one is more concrete psychoanalysis (the nature and his roots of his misanthropy and the like,) I hope you’ll enjoy it more!

Thanks again!
-SWPM

M_A_X:

^ Your theory of Giygas being a fetus derives from a picture that was photoshopped, and since it has nothing to do with the actual series, I would say that it’s both absurd and audacious.

It’s a nice idea and all, but there is no firmly grounded information to back this up, and I, along with everyone else, will continue to cringe when the word “fetus” is used on this forum.

Ehh, to be a stickler again (sorry >.<) it’s not just a clever photoshoop of a screenshot: the infamous “fetus silhouette” actually does appear in the final phase of the fight. Whether that is in way significant is totally opinionated, which I acknowledge. But my basic point is that the, while I still stand by the fetus interpretation (although that’s neither hear nor now, and I 100% respect your taboo upon it, so from hence force mum’s the word,) it’s by no means the main point of what I’m trying to say. What’s important is the state of mind (I’d say or lack there of, but I think I’ve filled out my quota for that phrase >.<) that Giygas was in, which we can all agree, is one of uncontrollable and unaware havoc, and why he’s in this sordid state, and what was able to defeat him while in it. Hell, you can remove every mention of the accursed f-word (and all infantile variants) from my article and not lose any of the main thesis. I’ll contend that said thesis is far from exempt from criticism. Like the length! My main writing problem could either be described as “too verbose” or “too --ing pretentious” (depending on how self deprecating I feel at the time) so I’d be happy to take any pointers and critiques on that front, it’s just that the fetal symbolism is so insignificant to the rest of the post, that it pains me to see the entirety of the article reduced to that one small aspect.

^ Well, to address SWPM and MAX’s particular issue, it’s clear that the regulars are just instinctively rejecting any analysis connected to that “outline,” owing to the misconceptions and more distasteful conjectures that surrounded the fanbase’s initial discovery of such a discernible pattern.

Maybe it’s still not clear that Giygas is represented by a still image beneath all of those filters and distortion algorithms. Here’s an image I took from the VisualBoy Advance’s BG layer tool. If people are ‘projecting’ human-centric forms onto this image, it’s very obviously intentional.

.

The entire series is driven by symbology; and Giygas’s connection with an outline of a distinctly human infant – if not specifically a “fetus” – is naturally derived from every significant character trait that defined him in MOTHER1. The very first line of dialogue to mention him at all states that his surrogate mother indiscriminately loved him as though he were a human child. The reason for this symbolism isn’t directly contextualized in any way within MOTHER2 itself, because it’s a higher level of the storyline that’s literally not meant to be fully comprehended by anyone who hasn’t played the prequel. New players should simply be unsettled by the imagery surrounding Giygas. Returning players should be able to actually understand his full situation and empathize with him. Villains aren’t one-dimensional in this series.

The oldest analogies and metaphors in the world connect to such basic conceptualization of securely self-contained womb-like “spheres” that ultimately inhibit the realization of higher potentialities; the need to abandon unconscious egocentricity for empathy. Gyiyg has been sustained by an invincible artificial womb seemingly for his entire existence, protected but largely impotent (in terms of the Devil Machine’s weak bursts of psychic energy), and isolated from the entire external world. As a consequence of this, and in conjunction with his attempt to fully sever the ingrained source of his capacity for human compassion, he ends up putting himself in a highly “regressed” state by the time you confront him as the end of the game; after he’s inadvertently unraveled his entire character and identity in an attempt to compensate for his most profound “weakness.” He can no longer think rationally, having has trapped himself in a primal, unconscious state of mind connected to early infancy; and his own choices have made him defenseless against being arbitrarily released from his self-confinement by Porky. After a short period of unrestrained part-mitotic / part-supernova-esque growth and impulsive psychic assaults (like the tantrum suggested to have originally killed his surrogate mother), the fragility of his negative path of growth – compared to Ness’s path of introspection and acknowledgement of his innate weaknesses – is fully exposed, and the leader of the Starmen inevitably collapes in on himself like a black hole. These are clearly meaningful extensions of the series’ overarching theme of growth. There’s just no meaningful message behind Gyiyg’s role in MOTHER2 without it.

Even in MOTHER1 Giygas was shown to be connected to his “mothership” by a cluster of cords – while he was simultaneously struggling to completely emotionally disconnect himself from the positive influences of his surrogate mother. The imagery is simply refined and updated in MOTHER2, where it’s synthesized with the image of a brain – since on a more obvious level, as the leader of the invasion, Giygas was essentially the organic decision-making component of a mechanical cerebral complex, that included the future-predicting Apple of Enlightenment. And even if the original name of the series wasn’t justification enough, the womb imagery doesn’t exactly come out of nowhere in MOTHER2 – the Lost Underworld itself represents an isolated womb, or at the very least a ‘belly’, where otherwise-extinct forms of life continue to be safely sustained. From North America to Europe to Egypt to sub-Saharan Africa, you’ve been tracing the development of human/oid life on Earth all the way back to its suggested subterranean origin point, where this particular line of symbolism finally meets up with Giygas’s.

So try critiquing this fellow’s analysis from different, more nuanced angles. The overall fanbase has yet to emerge from its own pronounced state of arrested development. I’ll get around to making a separate topic to comprehensively discuss the other dynamics surrounding Giygas point-by-point for a change soon enough.

Gyoza: How many lengthy conversations do you think Giegue got into with a human though? Even during the final fight he’s doing all the talking.

Yknow, as many times as I’ve seen that iconic background image, I’ve never looked at it as anything but a crazy face in the darkness. But today, for whatever reason, after reading Gio’s post, I found something else in there.

Giygas is actually Mickey Mouse.

Think about it: Mickey represents childhood in many respects, from his gleeful laughter to his innocent problem-solving. None among us could possibly say that they weren’t enticed to go along and join the club that was made for you and me when his irresistible theme song piped up. And at the end of the day, he’s ultimately a two-dimensional abberation under the control of another madman’s brush.

EDIT: sorry.

I think Giygas/Giegue could be related to the want/need for a Mother, and wasn’t possibly intentionally partially portrayed as someone reverted back to infancy due to feelings of abandonment.

Gyoza:

Since SS took the liberty of telling me my post was useless (and not to mention banning a new account I made because I don’t use the name Gyoza anymore, how generous considering one of the rules is just start posting, no threads about leaving/etc!) let’s go for round two.

Stopping this thread briefly to respond to this in an administrative capacity. You used the name Gyoza no more than an hour ago, before you decided to register a new account in order to post your stupid comment. Your bull--excuse doesn’t fly with me, nor does your public and private mod sass. I permbanned your dupe account, and I have no qualms about doing the same to your current account. I don’t care what your opinion is of the “eletists” on this forum, but you’d do well to shut your mouth and try not to cause any more trouble. I’ve banned better people.

You thought I didn’t? nevermind
Well, I don’t go for it in the traditional sense that’s brought it a bad name (the whole EB supports abortions bullcrap)
but I do believe there is evidence that Giygas was supposed to portray something confused and infantile, but with great power, thus giving the player mixed feelings…
I guess I don’t really go for the fetus theory then, really.

Edit: I have nothing wrong with satsy or simonbob honestly, I just usually go on starmen when i’m mad at something since it usually cheers me up (which has unfortunately been frequently lately) and it seems you’ve all caught the bad side of me ; __ ;

There’s a reference to the claim about a “get me out of here” being in the sound as Giygas dies. I believe it was actually Hirokazu Tanaka just messing with instruments to make something sound like a voice, but it doesn’t actually say anything, it’s just a sound effect.

If you can read Japanese, it’s talked about here: http://www.1101.com/MOTHER_music/08.html

I’ve seen people bring up the “get me out of here” thing in the past and it’s just another one of those things where your mind plays tricks as it tries to make sense of garbledness (much like with the “fetus image”, in fact). Besides, if he did talk, he’d probably talk in Japanese

I don’t know if SWPM is agreeing to that claim or not, but I thought I’d debunk that theory again lest people start spreading that one around again too.

I think the rumors about Giygas as a fetus is getting pretty old already. That dude [who wrote that article on that blog] doesn’t even care about playing Earthbound at all. Earthbound/Mother is a story about Giygas’ step-ancestor trying to help him, but later on the second game, he became too stressful that he can’t even handle his life long. So he destroyed his soul and got completely mindless.

Oh wow he did use one of Aangie’s artwork!

And now I am going to go back and actually read the thread.

I am sure Giygas has a lot of symbolism, and I believe that most of what Giovanni and some of what SWPM said is right. But I don’t actually think he IS a fetus. The major problem a lot of people seem to have when it comes to this is literalism. I like making theories but I don’t ever read quite that far into these kinds of things. In my EB fancomic coming in a couple years, Giygas will still be in his white, Mewtwo-like form for much of the comic, only transforming near the end.

I have always been thinking about what it would be like behind the scenes. I always thought of him as a tragic sort of figure, an orphan who is torn between two views of humanity, the good kind that Maria displayed, and the bad kind that Giygas’ race tried to paint them as in order to raise the chosen child with a hateful perspective on humanity. Eventually Giygas is forced to tear away his emotional ties with humanity so he can invade, but Ninten reopens those wounds, and later, Ness, his ultimate enemy, reopens them again, even deeper. There’s one scene where Giygas will be giving a Nuremburg Rally-style speech to a huge auditorium filled with Starmen, but he essentially becomes unstable and starts to repeat Ness’s name, spasming violently, and then blacks out. Things like that. At the end of the game I imagine Giygas giving up and retreating into the Devil’s Machine to protect everyone from himself, but Porky has other plans.

By the way, I’m not saying that SWPM implied Giygas was a fetus, but a lot of people who listen to these theories tend to take it to mean that Giygas somehow IS one.

Holy crap, this is being featured over at Destructoid!!
edit: like, on the front page. I mean it was there, but I was surprised to see it right there.

Anyway, still reading through it, but you really do make some good points. You make me refrain from covering my ears at the word “fetus”

Hey, congratulations on the front page!

I really liked the article, but god damn I really need to beat Mother 1 :I

I opened a terrible can of worms.

never believed the fetus thing — never will.
it’s just a sprite, and honestly I think some ppl read too far into things. I mean, if I drew a line in photoshop and distorted it, it’s not a perfect swirl, if you get what I mean. the parts that look like a fetus, just look like it, and it’s purely coincidence. I’ve experimented w/ the distortion tools, and I’ve gotten some shapes by accident.

also, I do not think Giegue turned into Giygas at the beginning of EB. if you’ve lost your mind, how could you possibly order an army around? the most that would do is make a tragic, yet hilarious sitcom.
I grew up around “crazy” ppl and at some point there is just, well, nothing. I mean, you can’t comprehend anything thrown your way, obviously. if you could, that’d make you sane; or at least slightly.